Five Questions about Project 2025 with Joanna Lydgate, CEO of States United
From Civil Discourse with Joyce Vance
This is a repost of the June 22, 2024 issue of Civil Discourse, a newsletter by Joyce Vance, a former U.S. Attorney and member of States United’s Bipartisan Advisory Board. You can find the original newsletter here, and subscribe to Civil Discourse for more here.
Project 2025. The 920-page document is Trump’s plan for radical, even authoritarian, changes to our way of life. We don’t have to speculate or guess what’s in the works for a second Trump administration because much of it is there for the reading. We’ve discussed it in broad terms in Civil Discourse ever since news about its existence broke late last year.
Our job beginning tonight is to further our understanding of it—to parse the details and consider the effect on our lives if Trump wins the election in November. Then, we can share what we learn as widely as possible.
We can’t overestimate the value of bringing accurate information to our communities. A recent studyrevealed that 17% of Americans blame Joe Biden for the end of Roe v. Wade and abortion rights. Shocking, but true. Misinformation is everywhere. It’s going to be important to ensure people have an accurate understanding of Project 2025 ahead of the election instead of learning about its consequences when it’s too late.
We’re joined tonight by Joanna Lydgate, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer of the States United Democracy Center (full disclosure, I’m on their advisory board). States United is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to free, fair, and secure elections. They work with state and local officials and their goals include protecting elections, keeping elections safe, promoting truthful information about elections, and making sure people and groups who undermine democracy are held accountable.
Joanna was quoted in the New York Times last weekend in a piece discussing Trump’s intentions for a second term: “Trump has made clear that he’ll disregard the law and test the limits of our system. What we’re staring down is extremely dark.”
Before launching States United, Joanna served as Chief Deputy Attorney General of Massachusetts. Joanna has served as an Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division of the Massachusetts Attorney General’s Office, was a law clerk to Judge Norman H. Stahl on the First Circuit Court of Appeals, and worked in nonprofit legal services in New York City. She is a graduate of Yale University and the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law.
We’re fortunate that she’s agreed to share her insight into Project 2025 with us tonight.
“Five Questions” is a feature for paid subscribers. It’s my way of thanking people who support this work financially so I can devote more time and resources to it. I value having all of you here—free subscriptions will always be available. I’m very grateful to everyone who reads the newsletter and engages in the hard but essential work of civil discourse.
Joyce: How should we understand Project 2025? It’s sponsored by people at the conservative Heritage Foundation. Is it Trump’s road map for a second administration or something else? What is the connection between Trump and the Heritage Foundation on this project?
Joanna: There’s every reason to believe this would be part of the road map for a second Trump administration. One way you can tell is by looking at who’s involved. A lot of the people working on Project 2025 had a role in the last Trump administration.
Another way you can tell is that Donald Trump has already tried to do some of it. As president, he signed an executive order creating something called Schedule F. The point of that was to strip thousands of public servants of job protections and allow Trump to replace them with loyalists in a second term. To politicize the professional civil service, in other words. That already happened. It just didn’t get a lot of attention because it was two weeks before the 2020 election. The Biden administration rescinded that order, but Project 2025 calls for reinstating it.
And a third way you can tell is that people close to Donald Trump are pretty open about it. Talking about purging the Justice Department, eliminating the FBI, that kind of thing. This is real and serious.
Joyce: Project 2025 is 920 pages long. What are the most important things we need to understand about it—the top lines.
Joanna: I think the first thing to understand is that this is an instruction manual. It’s created by people who understand the levers of government in a deep way. And it’s plug-and-play. If Trump wins the election, they want him to follow these instructions to radically remake the federal government, and in a matter of months.
And that’s key here: We shouldn’t expect a second Trump term to look like the first. This document shows that the people around him want to be ruthlessly efficient if they get another shot at this. So those of us who are concerned about democracy need to be prepared for that.
And the other thing I would say is Project 2025 covers a lot of ground. So whatever particular issue matters to you, whether it’s reproductive freedom or the economy or climate change, there’s probably something in this document you want to know about. For us at States United, it’s making sure we keep our elections free, fair, and secure. And there’s plenty in here to be alert to if you care about our democracy.
Joyce: My view is that the folks who wrote Project 2025 are counting on the fact that most Americans won’t read it. That’s why I think it’s so important for us to take it on. What advice do you have for people who are beginning to look at it? Read it start to finish? Start in a particular place? What’s your best advice?
Joanna: I’m so glad you raised this because I’m not sure folks appreciate how radical of a document this is. It’s a lot to digest.
The good news is I think the word is getting out. You’re seeing coverage pick up in the mainstream media. And all sorts of civil society organizations are sounding the alarm about what’s in here and developing their own responses. Our partners at Protect Democracy and at Just Security both have great resources, just to name two. John Oliver did a long segment on Project 2025 the other night. Getting the word out is really important because I don’t think most Americans would agree with some of the more radical ideas in this document. And voters ultimately have the power in November.
But I would say start with the issues you care about and the organizations you trust.
Joyce: The specifics of the plan encompass multiple executive branch agencies, offices most of us probably haven’t heard of like the U.S. Agency for Global Media, and a plan for abolishing the Export-Import Bank. When we get down into the weeds, what do you think it’s most important for people who are concerned with the future of democracy to focus on?
Joanna: Two things, I’d say. One is more atmospheric. You have people around Donald Trump talking about using this document to purge the government of so-called traitors and go after critics. Staff the entire executive branch with people who are loyal to Donald Trump, in a way that would overturn decades of practice.
And then the other level is more concrete. This document talks about weakening CISA, which is a government agency that helps protect both the physical and cyber security of our election systems. Reorienting the DOJ away from protecting the civil rights of voters and more toward chasing after voter fraud, which we know is extremely rare, and often used as an excuse to put up barriers to voting. Eliminating the 10-year term for the FBI director and making that person politically accountable to Trump.
And in the election context, a lot of this is stuff we’ve heard before. Project 2025 calls for prosecuting the Pennsylvania secretary of state over the 2020 election — when we know the election challenges were heard in court and dismissed. People are ready to move on. But that doesn’t make this kind of talk any less dangerous.
Joyce: States United is a non-partisan organization. How important is that status to the work you do? Can you talk about the importance of putting country over party in this moment?
Joanna: It’s super important. It’s our whole theory of the case at States United: In this moment, what’s at stake goes beyond red vs. blue. What’s at stake right now is protecting the rule of law. Protecting free and fair elections. Protecting the freedom to vote and to have that vote counted. Standing up for state and local election officials.
I say this all the time because it really is true: Whatever issue is most important to you, it comes down to free and fair elections. That’s why we do this work.
Pick a chapter that interests you and start reading. You can watch John Oliver’s piece here (warning: there is a little profanity; it is, after all, John Oliver). We’ll be studying Project 2025 in the days and weeks ahead. Stay tuned.
We’re in this together,
Joyce